Archive for the ‘citizenship’ Category

Getting a British Deed Poll recognised in Poland

Wednesday, August 20th, 2008

There are a number of documents relating to identity in Poland – marriage certificates, birth certificates, passports, identity cards and so on. For everything to do with identity the paper trail starts with a Polish birth certificate.

Therefore if you want to apply for confirmation of Polish citizenship the first thing you need to do as a foreigner is get a Polish birth certificate. However there is a problem if you have changed your name by Deed Poll because the Polish authorities won’t recognise it.

What is a Deed Poll?

In the UK changing your name is frighteningly easy. You just write a declaration on a piece of paper that from this day on you want to be known as X. You get a friend to sign it. Done. You can then send this off to your bank, the DVLA, the passport office and so on and go about getting your new name updated on their records. I was shocked at how easy the process was and a little concerned that it could be used by people to get a passport in somebody else’s name or for dubious purposes.

I guess this illustrates the main difference between UK and Polish bureaucracy – in the UK things can be done with ease and often via post/internet and the price we pay for that is identity theft. In Poland everything is more difficult, requires permission and must be done in person. Nobody here has ever heard of “identity theft”.

I changed my name via Deed Poll a few years ago when I decided to revert my surname back to my Grandfather’s original surname (he had changed it to a more English sounding one when he came to the UK after WW2).

UK Birth Certificates

In the UK the process is simple. You start life known as X. This is what is on your birth certificate and it is never changed. You change your name later on to Y but your birth certificate with X on is still valid.
Your true birth certificate is permanently held by the registry office where you were born. Your parents were issued a duplicate when you were born. If you lose it you can buy a new one for £7.

Result: Your passport now says your name is Y but your birth certificate says your name is X. This is a problem in Poland because your documents don’t match.

Polish Birth Certificates

Your true birth certificate is held by the Urząd Stanu Ciwilnego. Your parents were issued a “short summary” of this birth certificate. If you change your name it is done by getting a ‘decision’ from the USC. They then ammend your original birth certificate (there is a space for notations on it). They issue you with a new “short summary” birth certificate with your new name.

Result: Your passport now says your name is Y and your birth certificate now also says your name is Y. Your documents match.

Applying for a Polish Birth Certifcate as a person born outside Poland

As I have described above, your UK birth certificate does not match the name in your passport so the USC consider this as two different people. They won’t accept your Deed Poll because it was only validated by a witness and not by a notary or registry office. This is the exact problem I had. I spent a long time meeting with the director of my local USC who confessed that he didn’t know what to do and would have to research it. One month and a couple of phone calls to him later he told me to contact the Polish Consulate in London to get from them a document in Polish to say that my name had been changed in accordance with British law.

Polish Consulate London

I put in a few phone calls to the Polish Consulate in London. I eventually got hold of the legal department who told me that what I needed was an “apostille” from the British Foreign Commonwealth Office’s legalisation office. I would then need to get that translated into Polish along with my UK birth certificate and then my local USC would accept it.

Getting an Apostille from the FCO

After a quick read on the FCO website I found their document legalisation service. The process costs £33 which covers the £27 fee and £6 for recorded delivery return of documents (to a UK address or abroad). You can do the application either in person of by post. Current backlog for postal applications at time of writing is 1 week. Your Deed Poll first needs to be certified by a UK solicitor or notary. Most high street solicitors will do this for a fee of about £5.

I hope this blog post has been helpful. I am in the middle of getting my Apostille right now (as of 20th Aug 2008). I will update this post if I find out anything new or have any problems. Please leave a comment if this information has been of use, it’s nice to know if I am helping or not.

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How to get a PESEL

Monday, August 18th, 2008

As you may have already noticed in Poland, any time you try and do something (such a open a bank account or get a mobile phone contract) people ask your for your ‘Pesel’. Most of the time you don’t actually need a Pesel if you argue with them – but of course it’s a lot easier if you have one.

What is a PESEL?

A Pesel is an 11 digit identification number partly based on your date of birth. Polish people are assigned one within a couple of months of being born. When my daughter was born here in Poland we simply called the Urząd Miasta when she was 2 months old and they told us it over the phone. For foreigners you get it in the same place where you do your zameldowanie.

A Pesel is not a VAT number, nor is it a tax number (called a ‘NIP’ number in Poland), nor is it a national insurance number. It is just an ID number.

How do I get my PESEL?

If you are a foreigner (i.e. you don’t have confirmation of Polish citizenship) then a pesel can be applied for when you do a zameldowanie for a a period greater than 3 months. But to register for more than 3 months you will need to have got your karta pobytu already which lets you register for 5 years.
When you do your 5 year zameldowanie make sure you explicitly tell them that you want a Pesel. They are supposed to ask you about it but they didn’t ask me at all.
I have heard that sometimes they generate the Pesel automatically and some people didn’t even know that one had been generated for them. But for me no-one mentioned anything and on checking today they said I don’t have one.
Because the procedure is that a Pesel can only be generated when you register, I therefore needed to de-register and re-register (wymeldować and again zameldować). Unfortunately I didn’t have my documents with me so I will come back and do this another time. I was told I would receive my Pesel within 10 days of doing this.

Getting a Pesel is very easy to do and doesn’t cost anything. It will save you many arguments in public offices and shops. I wish I had known about this a few months ago…

EDIT – 19th Aug 2008:

I just returned form the Urząd Miasta and was told something different – the regular guy was there and he claimed that he did offer me a Pesel and I declined it. I find that hard to believe (why would I decline a Pesel?) but maybe I misunderstood something. He said that it would now be difficult to issue one. After a few phone calls and playing with his computer he said he would delete me, start over again from new and do it. So in the end it was sorted and I didn’t have to de-register and re-register. He said I had to return in a week to collect it. I asked if I could just call by phone and he said no. By this time he was getting grumpy so I didn’t try and push my luck any further…

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Getting Polish Citizenship

Monday, June 23rd, 2008

As I have already posted in my blog about getting a karta pobytu, I found out that as I have Polish blood I may well have Polish citizenship and therefore was supposed to go to the Urząd Województwa in Kraków to present myself. For those of you in małopolskie go to:

room 354 on the 3rd floor
Urząd Województwa
ulica Basztowa 22
Krakow

It’s a huge impressive old building not far from the main train station. The guy there was very very helpful and told me that the first thing I need to do (and one of the fundamentals for getting most things done in Poland regarding identity) is to get my birth certificate registered in Poland.
That is easier said than done because British birth certificates don’t have all the information that goes on a Polish birth certificate. Also, I restored my Grandfather’s name by Deed Poll a few years ago, and Polish law doesn’t seem to recognise or have any provision for British Deed Polls.

After that it’s a case of filing the application. You have to provide a passport photo and the kind of information needed for a karta pobytu such as proving you have means to live in Poland etc.. etc.. Of course you need to provide originals (with certified translations where appropriate) of all documents required to show you are of Polish descent. If you don’t have originals (as in my case) then basically you just give them what you do have and explain the situation, it’s then there task to investigate.

Simple cases where all documents are in order take a few months, most cases take over 2 years.

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Apparently I’m Polish and don’t know it

Thursday, March 27th, 2008

The other day I got a phone call from some guy in the office regarding my application for my karta pobytu. That was a nice suprise as I was wondering what was happening with it having not heard anything since applying. He asked me about my Polish looking surname. When I told him it was because my Grandfather was Polish he asked if I knew that I probably already had Polish citizenship.

What?

Yes that’s right – I might already have Polish citizenship. Apparently, if you have a parent or grandparent who is/was Polish then you automatically became Polish the moment you were born whether you knew it or not, regardless of where you or your parents were born!

So today I did a bit of googling to see how this could be, and what the impact would be for me.
It seems that as long as my Grandfather didn’t renounce or otherwise ‘lose’ his Polish citizenship, then by blood rights I too have Polish citizenship. The rules are complicated though because if your ancestors left Poland before 1962 (as my Granddad did) then there are a number of caveats.

To check whether I have citizenship or not apparently I need to do an application to my local embassy and supply documents such as birth certificates with translations and so on.

These are the links for more information:

Polish nationality law – good ol’ wikipedia.
Polish Embassy in London, Citizenship info – explains exactly what the rules are
Polish Citizenship, ancestry and geneology - questions and answers from polishforums.com

This has got me thinking though – what are the advantages and disadvantages of getting Polish citizenship? I have come up with the following – let me know what you reckon:

Pros:

  • Will be treated like a Pole whilst in Poland, therefore bureacracy should be less complicated than it is for me now with registration, buying property etc..
  • Ability to get a Polish passport. Not much use to me as a Brit, but might be useful to non-EU citizens who want an easy way to get an EU passport

Cons:

  • No doubt applying for citizenship (or rather I should say “getting confirmation of citizenship” as these are two different applications) will be tedious, bureaucratic and time-consuming
  • New legal responsibilities (for example you have to declare your nationality as Polish to the authorities when in Poland)
  • Potential tax/legal issues could arise (I read about some guys who suddenly became obliged to do national service or pay taxes etc..)
  • If you are involved with the armed services or areas requiring special security clearance then dual nationality can be problematic

This whole thing has also got me thinking about whether or not I want to be Polish or not. Would I feel comfortable having to carry an ID card? How would I feel about declaring myself as Polish? Which country would I feel I had the most allegiance to? How would this change my view of Poland?

I am still quite suprised to discover that this could be possible and will think about it all some more before deciding if I will apply or not.

Meanwhile I have written to the UK embassy with my details to find out exactly what the process involves.

Apparently the blood line can go further back than just 2 generations – which is food for thought – who knows what citizenships you might have that you don’t even know about!?!

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How to report your marriage in Poland

Saturday, March 15th, 2008

How to get a “Odpis skrócony aktu małżenstwa” – Polish marriage certificate

Given that the theme of my blog is foreigners (well OK Brits) in Poland, then my razor sharp logic suggests to me that if you are reading this blog then it’s quite likely that you or your spouse (if you have one) aren’t Polish. Therefore there’s a fair chance that you didn’t get married in Poland. This means you may well have another piece of Polish bureacracy to take care of – reporting your foreign marriage!

Why?

If you are lucky you might not need to bother. If you don’t need to then I suggest you save yourself the money and the hassle and don’t. So by now you are surely thinking – so when would I need to? I can think of the following cases:

  • Your Polish wife wants to change her surname to yours.
  • You want to register a newly born child in Poland as a married couple.
  • You are applying for a residence card (karta pobytu) and need to demonstrate that you have a Polish spouse.
  • You or your spouse want to avoid problems with the ruthless Urząd Skarbowy (treasury office) and want to report your marriage to them for financial/tax reasons.

How?

First of all you will need a Polish translation of your marriage certificate from a sworn translator. 1 page shouldn’t cost you more than around 44 złoty. Translators for languages such as English and German can be found in every town. I know a couple who got married in Egypt. I can’t imagine that there are many Arabic translators in the phone book so my practical tip for today is to avoid getting married in odd places, or to odd people, or preferably both.

Next you need to go to the Urząd Stanu Cywilnego (office of civil affairs) in the town where your spouse is permanently melded with your translation and original. My wife did this part so I can’t remember what she paid for the priviledge or how long it took, but I can tell you that THEY WILL KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL so make sure you have photocopies for your own records!

Why they keep your original I don’t understand. What happens if you need your original for any reason back home I don’t know. I am sure there is Polish logic in there somewhere. Come to think of it, like most Polish bureacracy there probably isn’t…

So now you are the proud owner of a yellow piece of A5 paper that has the summary of your wedding details on it. Unfortunately you are likely to face the following potential problems with it:

  1. Polish wedding certificates have the places and dates of birth of the bride and groom on them. Your certificate probably doesn’t (e.g. UK wedding certificates). Therefore your details will just be blanked out. This will cause you no end of problems when you try and use this document in other Polish offices. When I tried to register the birth of our daughter the woman insisted that our document must have been translated wrong and wouldn’t accept it. It was only after a long phone call with the director of that office that they relented.
  2. Some offices won’t accept this certificate once it’s older than 3 months old. They expect you to go and get another one. An example is when applying for a karta pobytu. This means going back to the office holding your original wedding certificate, regardless of whether you now live on the other side of Poland because you reported your wedding X years ago and have since moved… This alone is a good argument for not bothering to report your wedding until you find you need to.

I wrote this article based on my experience (a Brit) who married a Pole in the UK. Let me know about your experiences!

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5 year registration – karta pobytu

Tuesday, March 11th, 2008

I already blogged about my experiences with registering locally, well after growing tired of traipsing to the local council every 3 months I decided to bite the bullet and get my karta pobytu (card of stay). This allows me to register for a 5 year period.

It’s worth mentioning that apparently you can register permanently, but I haven’t looked into this too much and you need the card of stay first anyway. Quoting from the “instruction to the nationals of the European Union member states and their family members” leaflet that they gave me when I applied for my karta pobytu, it says “the Union citizen shall obtain right of permanent residence after five years of continuous residence within the territory of Republic of Poland”.

Also note that you can only get the karta pobytu having already been here for 3 months having already done the local registration as above.

The first problem in doing this is the difficulty in finding out exactly what you are supposed to do, what documents you need and where to go.

There’s a thread here about it on Polish forums where I asked if anyone had tried doing this in Krakow. Just to be sure though I called up the office in Kraków myself to check. They referred me to their portal at www.wrotamalopolski.pl where the forms and instructions are available for download. It took a bit of hunting down but here is the page for registration in małopolskie. Unfortunately the link entitled “wniosek do pobrania (ob. UE)” which in English is “form for download (EU citizens)” is the wrong form. That form is for a replacement card, not a new application. I had to do my application a second time and of course go and get photocopies there and then because of this.

If anyone has links for the right form or for other regions please post a comment.

Where to go

Oddzial do Spraw Cudzoziemców Wydziału Spraw Obywatelskich i Cudzoziemców Małopolskiego Urzędu Wojewódzkiego w Krakowie, ul. św. Sebastiana 9-11, I piętro, pokój 102

Here it is on google maps.

Basically that is the office for foreigners, room 102, 1st floor on Świetego Sebastiana street. It’s pretty near the Wawel behind the hotel Royal, so if you get lost head for the castle and ask. Also there is a photocopy place (ksero) in the same street near the kiosk. You might find yourself having to go there to get photocopies of whatever they decide to demand from you.

There’s also an office in Nowy Sącz if that’s nearer for you (ul. Jagiellońska 52).

What you need

  1. Forms. First fill out the 5 page form. As mentioned it is supposed to be downloadable from their website but my experience is different. You need 3 photocopies too. If you don’t have copies they’ll just send you out to get them. I should mention here that you even need to copy the blank sections that you are for them to fill in – I didn’t, and of course I was sent out to get photocopies. I did ask her what the point of photocopying empty pages was but she wasn’t having any of it.
  2. Passport with 1 photocopy of the page with your details on it.
  3. Proof that you have health insurance. This ones a bit tricker because it depends on whether you are working for a Polish company, are a student or still work for a UK company. I work for a UK company so just got the new European Health Insurance Card by filling out this form on the NHS website. Of course I needed 1 photocopy of it.
  4. Proof that you have financial means. This one is tricky because again it depends on whether you are a student, working locally, retired or whatever. Either they will ask for some crap such as a letter from a Polish bank confirming that you have a bank account, or they will ask for 1 photocopy of your credit card if you have one.
  5. Photocopy of your 3 month temporary registration.

Note that when you give them photocopies they will probably want to see the originals too, so bring them with you.

Because my wife is Polish they also asked me for our Polish marriage certificate. Because we got married in English we previously had to “announce” our marriage to the Polish authorities and they gave us a little yellow A5 document which seems to keep the officials happy. However I didn’t have this with me because when I rang I hadn’t been told this was necessary. Even if I had had it with me it would have been no good, because they said they wanted one less than 3 months old. We have been married 2 years and our Polish translation/certificate is already 1 year old.

Still following this?

So according to them I have to go all the way back to Opole (where we first lived when we came to Poland and where we announced our English wedding) to get another Polish certificate, to then bring to them in Kraków, even though I live nowhere near either place.

I pointed out to her politely that that was bollocks and I wasn’t going to, so she decided instead that photocopies of my credit cards would suffice, but that I should call up after 2 weeks to check it wasn’t going to cause a problem with my application.

MORAL OF THE STORY – I STRONGLY ADVISE YOU TO CALL UP AND ASK THEM EXACTLY WHAT YOU WILL NEED FIRST!

The Kraków office phone number is 012 392 1845.

What to do

Turn up. Queue. Get told that you have the wrong form or have filled it out wrong. Fill out the right form correctly. Go back to the photocopier place. Return to the office again. This time she decides that she wants photocopies of your credit card as you don’t have your Polish marriage certificate with you. Go back to the photocopier place. Return to the office again. Call after 2 weeks to check your application is OK. Wait for the Police to turn up at your door to ask you strange questions about your educational history, work experience and if you are a terrorist or some sort of nutter. Tell them “no”. Go back to the office again after 1 month to collect your certificate. Pay 1 złoty at the till first.

Springer’s Final Thought

This process has to be the biggest load of bureaucratical bollocks I have dealt with to date living in Poland. I really don’t see the point – if I am a terrorist why would I apply for a residence card to start with? If we’re all in the EU aren’t we free to live anywhere we want? What p*sses me off the most is that they ask you to bring photocopies with you – how primitive is that? What happens if you have made a mistake or have the wrong form? Would it not be more logical for them to check your forms and originals and then take whatever copies they want themselves?

Anyway that’s my rant over for now… please post your experiences of applying for the karta pobytu if you have any.

EDIT – I got a phone call on 13th May 2008 to say my karta pobytu was ready. I went back to the office in Krakow, paid 1 zloty and collected it. What an anticlimax – just a little bit of paper with a stamp :-(

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